An "Exclusive Interview" with Elder Zwick

**This is not actually an interview with Elder Zwick, but these are his words from
“What are you thinking?” his General Conference Address from April 2014.

KA:  Elder Zwick, thank you so much for joining me today!  As you can imagine there are many of us who have been wanting to hear directly from a Church leader regarding some of the recent goings on in Mormonism, specifically the pending disciplinary council against Kate Kelly and other actions being taken against Ordain Women or members who have publicly expressed disagreement with Church stances. 

From what I can tell, basically there is a scale of responses to the situation, both extremes are openly hostile and hateful to each other . . . and I suppose the middle would just be people who haven’t heard, don’t care, or are confused about the whole situation.  I would believe very few people are actually in the middle, and it seems most people have actually picked “sides” and think the other side is wrong.  I’ve been really disheartened by a lot of responses on both sides.  It seems everyone seems like they have the ability to put themselves in the judgment seat and come to a conclusion that they are on the “right” side.  I’ve seen a lot of condemnation, damnation, and name calling on both sides, etc.  Could you provide some guidance for all of us to navigate this minefield?

Elder Zwick:   "What does the phrase “no corrupt communication” mean to you? We all regularly experience highly charged feelings of anger—our own and others’. We have seen unchecked anger erupt in public places.  All of us, though covenant children of a loving Heavenly Father, have regretted jumping headlong from the high seat of self-righteous judgment and have spoken with abrasive words before we understood a situation from another’s perspective. We have all had the opportunity to learn how destructive words can take a situation from hazardous to fatal.  A recent letter from the First Presidency states clearly, “The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to love and treat all people with kindness and civility—even when we disagree” (First Presidency letter, Jan. 10, 2014). What a masterful reminder that we can and should participate in continuing civil dialogue, especially when we view the world from differing perspectives."

KA:  Wow.  Personally for me if I don’t understand this from another’s perspective I’m not following the Savior?  As a Mormon feminist I obviously sympathize with the cause and love my OW brothers and sisters and the questions they are asking.  Does that mean if I don’t love and understand those who are appalled and offended by OW I’m not being like my Savior?  And those who are appalled and offended by OW are not belong like their Savior?  How can we have a civil conversation with each other if there’s so much offense, disgust, and anger on both sides?

Elder Zwick:  “There exists today a great need for men and women to cultivate respect for each other across wide distances of belief and behavior and across deep canyons of conflicting agendas. It is impossible to know all that informs our minds and hearts or even to fully understand the context for the trials and choices we each face.  Nevertheless, what would happen to the “corrupt communication” Paul spoke about if our own position included empathy for another’s experience first? Fully owning the limits of my own imperfections and rough edges, I plead with you to practice asking this question, with tender regard for another’s experience: “What are you thinking?”

KA:  Do you have a personal story that happened to you and your wife that might illustrate how we can overcome this ‘What are you thinking?’ gap?

Elder Zwick:  Forty-one years ago I climbed into the driver’s seat of an 18-wheel semitruck with my beautiful wife, Jan, and our infant son, Scotty. We were taking a heavy load of construction materials across several states.

In those days there were no seat-belt restrictions or infant car seats. My wife held our precious son in her arms.  As we made our descent over historic Donner Pass, a steep section of highway, the cab of the semi suddenly and unexpectedly filled with thick smoke. It was difficult to see, and we could hardly breathe.  With a heavy rig, brakes alone are not enough to rapidly decrease speed. Using the engine brakes and gearing down, I frantically attempted to stop.  Just as I was pulling to the side of the road, but before we had come to a full stop, my wife opened the door of the cab and jumped out with our baby in her arms. I watched helplessly as they tumbled in the dirt.

As soon as I had the semi stopped, I bolted from the smoking cab. With adrenaline pumping, I ran through the rocks and weeds and held them in my arms. Jan’s forearms and elbows were battered and bleeding, but thankfully she and our son were both breathing. I just held them close as the dust settled there on the side of the highway. As my heartbeat normalized and I caught my breath, I blurted out, “What in the world were you thinking? Do you know how dangerous that was? You could have been killed!”

She looked back at me, with tears running down her smoke-smudged cheeks, and said something that pierced my heart and still rings in my ears: “I was just trying to save our son.”  I realized in that moment she thought the engine was on fire, fearing the truck would explode and we would die. I looked at my precious wife, softly rubbing the head of our infant son, and wondered what kind of woman would do something so courageous.

This situation could have been as emotionally hazardous as our literal engine failure. Gratefully, after enduring the silent treatment for a reasonable amount of time, each of us believing the other person was at fault, we finally expressed the emotions that were churning beneath our heated outbursts. Shared feelings of love and fear for the other’s safety kept the hazardous incident from proving fatal to our cherished marriage.

KA:  Wait, wait, wait.  So this is my interpretation (not yours) . . . The leaders Ordain Women were concerned for the spiritual lives of their sisters who were leaving over these very questions and issues they are raising.  Their love and concern for these sisters promoted an action in which their perspective was imperative - they literally might be acting with hearts full of love with sincere intent of the salvation of souls and bringing and keeping them here with Christ.  But if we are not in their head . . . it may just look like they jumped out of a totally safe vehicle.  They may look insane and their actions may make us even angry, those who feel safe and wonderful in the vehicle. 

Elder Zwick:  When our truck cab filled with smoke, my wife acted in the bravest manner she could imagine to protect our son. I too acted as a protector when I questioned her choice. Shockingly, it did not matter who was more right. What mattered was listening to each other and understanding the other’s perspective.

KA:  What I'm hearing you say is that this could this be a test for all of us?  What matters is listening and understanding each other? 

Elder Zwick:  The willingness to see through each other’s eyes will transform “corrupt communication” into “minister[ing] grace.” The Apostle Paul understood this, and on some level each of us can experience it too. It may not change or solve the problem, but the more important possibility may be whether ministering grace could change us.

KA:  So what should we do if neither side seems intent on listening to each other?  What if one side refuses to speak to the other?  That would obviously hurt the other side, but they would insistently ask that there be an attempt to understand them instead of being ignored.  I’m sure the driver was offended because he thought it showed a lack of trust in his driving skills.  This seems so sad that either side of this “marriage” could have taken steps to avoid this divorce.  What a potential for beautiful marriage there was if things could have worked out differently.  This is why I mourn.

A (Modest) Letter to My Daughter

You are amazing, inside and out.  How cliche, right?  But I know you love science, and you love learning about bodies, and you've figured out that our bodies are one big flippin' miracle after another.  How a body can provide nutrition and and eliminate waste, be ravaged by cancer and fixed by surgery, and how it can heal itself and create new life, even when that embryo starts in a petri dish (you are the very definition of a miracle, as an IVF baby).  I mean, even though you're only eight, we've had "The Talk" and you understand about eggs and seeds and anatomically correct body parts and where the baby comes out - and although this knowledge has given you pause at times, I know that you love knowing the truth.

Here is another truth:   Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are creative masters - I know how much you love art, and you are a masterpiece: we all are.  Because we were created in their image there is something about all of our shapes and body parts that are divine, they are perfect.

I want to talk to you about modesty.  I have pretty strong feelings and opinions about the issue and I don't always think that the principle of modesty is taught correctly.  Modesty is something that is being debated ad nauseum.  I could link to dozens of articles, of the ridiculous and outlandish or  thoughtful and articulate, and each have their rebuttals and counter-rebuttals.  But instead of talking about hemlines and cap sleeves and objectification and rape culture, I want to talk to you instead about one thing:

Don't ever consider what another person will think about you while choosing what you are going to wear.   I want you to wear clothes that are comfortable, that fit well, that make you feel good about yourself and give you confidence, that match your personality and that you like, and are appropriate for the activity.  Do you want to know what else you should think about while choosing your wardrobe?  Your Heavenly Parents.  You are their daughter and your body is a gift to you.  I want you to think about how your Heavenly Parents would want you to clothe your body.  You know they love you and want the best for you.  I truly believe you would want to do what would make them happy and proud of you.  So please, stand in front of the mirror and think about the opinions of the people who mean the most: yourself and God.

If you follow these guidelines, will your hemlines always match other people's expectations and standards?  Maybe not.  And I'm okay with that.  Because if you wouldn't mind wearing your outfit in front of your Heavenly Parents, then why would we worry about anyone else?

As much as your father is terrified of the day, your body is developing.  And one day soon you will have breasts and curves and even your monthly cycles.  When that day comes, as weird as it sounds, can we go out to eat and celebrate?  To celebrate being a young woman: to celebrate that it is not always pleasant, but it is always something to be proud of.   Also, other people may notice your body, especially if your genes bless you with more of a chest than your mother (ahem).  There is no amount of clothing that will enable you to avoid attention about your body.  So make sure you never seek after that kind of attention and make sure you ignore it when it comes your way.   When we give and seek physical attention, we are not seeing each others' spirits, seeing each other as we truly are, we are seeing each other as shapes and objects first - how Satan would want us to see each other.  It is not your job to avoid notice or to find a way to attract the appropriate amount of notice.    It is your job to be yourself and to please God.

You may have others teach you that your job is to be modest, because you must guard yourself and others from whatever sin your body may lead us all to.  Do not be ashamed of what your body is or afraid of what others may think of it.

In reality, modesty is behavior or appearance that is humble, moderate, and decent. A modest person avoids excesses and pretensions.  I want you to study the scriptures about what it means to be modest:

1 Timothy 2:9 "women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Jacob 2:13 "And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are ^alifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they."

D&C 42:40 "And again, thou shalt not be ^aproud in thy ^bheart; let all thy ^cgarments be plain, and their ^dbeauty the beauty of the ^ework of thine own hands;"

 According to the scriptures, modesty is not dressing for attention or showing off for others or wearing costly apparel.  Does that also refer to fads and fashions?  Hmmm.  Further study from the Catholic Catechism, whose definition I love, provides more insight, "Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It guides how one looks at others  and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies. The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.  (www.vatican.va)

 So if modesty is about how we see others, does that mean the challenge of modesty is to see each other as Children of God no matter what they are wearing and no matter how our body reacts?  Yes!  God gave male and female bodies hormones that cause us to be attracted to each other and sometimes the sights of something attractive will arouse those feelings.  You will have those feelings!  Those feelings are not bad, they are not a sin, they are from God!  Lusting, the choice of having inappropriate thoughts and desires about something, is a sin.  So, if your thoughts are not appropriate in the situation, pay them no heed and move on.  Some think that men are the only ones that struggle with this challenge, some recent scientific studies have shown this is not true.    Shh, don't tell your dad, but this summer I was at the library walking through the parking lot when a man drove up on a motorcycle.  This man was muscular and handsome and my brain was thinking about what to cook for dinner that night when my body had a physical reaction and interrupted and said, "Hell-o Hottie!"  I could have chosen to keep thinking and to fantasize a bit - but I consciously made a decision to change the path my mind was on.  And the next thought I had was, "Hmm, how about chicken enchiladas?  Do I have enough salsa?"  This principle is probably best taught by Chinese Proverb of The Burden:

Two monks were returning to the monastery in the evening. It had rained and there were puddles of water on the road sides. At one place a beautiful young woman was standing unable to walk across because of a puddle of water. The elder of the two monks went up to a her lifted her and left her on the other side of the road, and continued his way to the monastery.  In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, “Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman ?”  The elder monk answered “yes, brother”.  Then the younger monk asks again, “but then Sir, how is that you lifted that woman on the roadside ?”   The elder monk smiled at him and told him ” I left her on the other side of the road, but you are still carrying her.”

I wish someone would have given me this advice when I was younger.  Perhaps it was when I shaved my head with Aunt Emily when she was going through chemo that I learned a lot about my looks (and how much we adorn ourselves for others' opinions), my body, and my relationship with God.  Please keep in mind that the ONLY important thing is to make sure you would be comfortable dressing and acting the way you do in front of your Heavenly Parents.  I promise you if you stay close to the Spirit and follow this one guideline you will be happy and you will be blessed. 

Love,


Your Momma